Comments on: Georgia — “Saudi Arabia of the South?” http://www.terrarossa.com/georgia-saudi-arabia-of-the-south/ Where Conservatives Consider a New Energy Future Thu, 28 Aug 2008 07:30:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Jim Davis http://www.terrarossa.com/georgia-saudi-arabia-of-the-south/#comment-205 Jim Davis Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:42:08 +0000 http://www.terrarossa.com/?p=96#comment-205 Big D has some interesting thoughts. I agree with eliminating subsidies and taxing oil. Replacing crops with solar panels however needs closer scrutiny. The problem with solar panels is that you must use the energy (ie the sun light) or loose it. For instance if you have a 100kw solar array and the load is only 70kw you loose 30kw. Plants are a means to store the solar energy. So if your 100 hp ethanol engine is only driving a 10hp load, the fuel consumption decreases. If the engine isnt running, the fuel stays in the tank for future use. Also ethanol could be used to run jet engines in aircraft. Ethanol is certainly not the be all and end all of energy but I think it will have a niche somewhere. But why not put the solar panels in the desert? We have more sun there and the land isnt being used for much else. This way we can have both ethanol and solar electric. Big D has some interesting thoughts. I agree with eliminating subsidies and taxing oil. Replacing crops with solar panels however needs closer scrutiny. The problem with solar panels is that you must use the energy (ie the sun light) or loose it. For instance if you have a 100kw solar array and the load is only 70kw you loose 30kw. Plants are a means to store the solar energy. So if your 100 hp ethanol engine is only driving a 10hp load, the fuel consumption decreases. If the engine isnt running, the fuel stays in the tank for future use. Also ethanol could be used to run jet engines in aircraft. Ethanol is certainly not the be all and end all of energy but I think it will have a niche somewhere. But why not put the solar panels in the desert? We have more sun there and the land isnt being used for much else. This way we can have both ethanol and solar electric.

]]> By: Big D http://www.terrarossa.com/georgia-saudi-arabia-of-the-south/#comment-203 Big D Tue, 20 Feb 2007 00:19:56 +0000 http://www.terrarossa.com/?p=96#comment-203 errr. The problem I have here is that green plants simply convert sunlight to plant matter. The plant matter is harvested and converted to fuel. The fuel is then converted to energy to make a car go. Starting with the initial energy input (the sun) this process is horribly inefficient. Only a tiny percentage of the original energy resource is eventually used to make a car go. The alternative, cut down the crops you are planting to make ethanol and replace them with solar panels. Electricity from solar panels goes down existing electrical grid to recharge electric car. Vastly more efficient. The only advanatge to ethanol is we can keep our existing auto base, at least to some extent. A not inconsequential advantage, but rather silly given the poor overall efficiency of ethanol. A better solution would be to increase the gasoline tax by 1 to 5 cents or so per year and eliminate all subsidies to ethenol, and trade barriers for its importation. The market would then solve the problem relatively quickly. I doubt ethenol would survive, but you never know. errr.

The problem I have here is that green plants simply convert sunlight to plant matter. The plant matter is harvested and converted to fuel. The fuel is then converted to energy to make a car go. Starting with the initial energy input (the sun) this process is horribly inefficient. Only a tiny percentage of the original energy resource is eventually used to make a car go.

The alternative, cut down the crops you are planting to make ethanol and replace them with solar panels. Electricity from solar panels goes down existing electrical grid to recharge electric car. Vastly more efficient.

The only advanatge to ethanol is we can keep our existing auto base, at least to some extent. A not inconsequential advantage, but rather silly given the poor overall efficiency of ethanol. A better solution would be to increase the gasoline tax by 1 to 5 cents or so per year and eliminate all subsidies to ethenol, and trade barriers for its importation. The market would then solve the problem relatively quickly. I doubt ethenol would survive, but you never know.

]]> By: Daniel http://www.terrarossa.com/georgia-saudi-arabia-of-the-south/#comment-189 Daniel Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:07:26 +0000 http://www.terrarossa.com/?p=96#comment-189 Both Jim and Rhett's comments are right on. Cellulosic ethanol is viable, but maybe not yet economical. There are major hurdles to overcome. It will be great if we can overcome them. And Rhett has it right as well. There is no reason we shouldn't use using the oil we have in this country. Both Jim and Rhett’s comments are right on. Cellulosic ethanol is viable, but maybe not yet economical. There are major hurdles to overcome. It will be great if we can overcome them. And Rhett has it right as well. There is no reason we shouldn’t use using the oil we have in this country.

]]> By: rhett http://www.terrarossa.com/georgia-saudi-arabia-of-the-south/#comment-188 rhett Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:18:06 +0000 http://www.terrarossa.com/?p=96#comment-188 I thinks it's a good idea but we need to drill in this country and off shore to put the big oil companies profits to better use for us. We have the oil we need here in america. I thinks it’s a good idea but we need to drill in this country and off shore to put the big oil companies profits to better use for us. We have the oil we need here in america.

]]> By: Jim Davis http://www.terrarossa.com/georgia-saudi-arabia-of-the-south/#comment-185 Jim Davis Thu, 15 Feb 2007 09:49:32 +0000 http://www.terrarossa.com/?p=96#comment-185 Cellulosic ethanol is quite viable. I have actually done it experimentally in my basement. The problem with current methods is that they require acid, typically sulfuric, which must be either recovered or replaced. The ASTM standard for ethanol has recently been modified to place a limit on sulfur in the ethanol thanks to the state of California. Also, a lot of waste product in the form of gypsum is produced which must be disposed of. Some companies are developing proprietary enzymes which convert the cellulose to sugar. There is a potential problem here in that these companies may chrage a lot for the enzymes or go into the business themselves and not sell the enzyme. On the plus side, raw material is much cheaper than corn and it is trivial to add the cellulose to sugar step to existing ethanol plants. But here again, this may require a recertification by the EPA, no small task. I oppose subsidies. These just go to big companies which can afford the layers and the lobying to get them. There isnt that much economy of scale in ethanol production. It doesnt make sense to rig the system so only the ADM's of the world can be in the business. If we wish to alter the markets to make alternative fuels more competitive I would much prefer a tariff on oil imports. Other than that the government should get out of the way because they are currently the biggest obsticle to the alternative fuel industry. Cellulosic ethanol is quite viable. I have actually done it experimentally in my basement. The problem with current methods is that they require acid, typically sulfuric, which must be either recovered or replaced. The ASTM standard for ethanol has recently been modified to place a limit on sulfur in the ethanol thanks to the state of California. Also, a lot of waste product in the form of gypsum is produced which must be disposed of. Some companies are developing proprietary enzymes which convert the cellulose to sugar. There is a potential problem here in that these companies may chrage a lot for the enzymes or go into the business themselves and not sell the enzyme. On the plus side, raw material is much cheaper than corn and it is trivial to add the cellulose to sugar step to existing ethanol plants. But here again, this may require a recertification by the EPA, no small task.

I oppose subsidies. These just go to big companies which can afford the layers and the lobying to get them. There isnt that much economy of scale in ethanol production. It doesnt make sense to rig the system so only the ADM’s of the world can be in the business. If we wish to alter the markets to make alternative fuels more competitive I would much prefer a tariff on oil imports. Other than that the government should get out of the way because they are currently the biggest obsticle to the alternative fuel industry.

]]> By: Daniel http://www.terrarossa.com/georgia-saudi-arabia-of-the-south/#comment-180 Daniel Wed, 14 Feb 2007 01:18:19 +0000 http://www.terrarossa.com/?p=96#comment-180 Cellulosic ethanol will be great--when it works. I'm glad people are like Range Fuels are working on this, but what will it cost to produce the ethanol? We've had the technology to make cellulosic ethanol for years, but not on a commercial scale at a reasonable price. If this is competitive right now, then why does Vinod Kholsa need to be going around the Hill looking for handouts? This is one of the men that was behind California Proposition 87, an attempt to raise taxes to create a $4 billion slush fund in order to subsidize pet projects. Cellulosic ethanol will be great–when it works. I’m glad people are like Range Fuels are working on this, but what will it cost to produce the ethanol? We’ve had the technology to make cellulosic ethanol for years, but not on a commercial scale at a reasonable price.

If this is competitive right now, then why does Vinod Kholsa need to be going around the Hill looking for handouts? This is one of the men that was behind California Proposition 87, an attempt to raise taxes to create a $4 billion slush fund in order to subsidize pet projects.

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